Between East and West - Terminology problems

[anglomedved]

On the windy bridge between western Christianity and Orthodoxy where my bishop has placed me, one of my most difficult problems is turning out to revolve around four terms:

 Tradition, Culture, Civilization and Morality.

 I am not sure that western Christianity and Orthodoxy mean the same things here.

 Tradition is the West is pure Christian traditio, in the East it is an impenetrable amalgam of traditio and national tradition, with the exact dosage of the two left largely to the discretion of the individual priest.

 In the Orthodox mind, it seems that Culture and Civilization seem to go together, in the West, Culture, in the form of 'popular culture' can be pretty uncivilized.

 In particular for the west, Morality is inseparable from the other three, whereas I get the impression it rather goes its own separate way in Orthodoxy. You can be damned immoral but still be viewed as civilized and cultured…

Comments

[bizantinum.livejournal.com]

Ох, не знаю. И "культурный" и "цивилизованный" - это те понятия, смысл которых, как мне кажется сейчас нивелируется.

[mmekourdukova.livejournal.com]

Может быть, самое время вспомнить по этому случаю о морали?

[bizantinum.livejournal.com]

Вот, вот. Как говорит Майкл - этический аспект.

[ursusanglicanus.livejournal.com]

My impression is that they do not use the word этический much in Orthodox circles, and prefer нравственный?

Is it that the hated liberals have этика and the beloved traditionalists have нравственност?

Or is there another difference: like in English 'ethics' would be more at the political and social level and 'moral' much more at the social and sexual level.

If this is so, would it be unfair and unkind to suggest that, in a desire to build up this Russian-cum-Orthodox identity, the ROC prefers to concentrate on of нравственност, where it is relatively strong (and sees the west as weak) but prefers to steer clear of этика, where it knows itself and the Russian 'system' to be weaker (and vulnerable to outside criticism)?

[bizantinum.livejournal.com]

Мне видится, что проблема противопоставления нравственность/этика - надуманна. Да, у этих слов могут быть разные оттенки, но по сути ИМХО - это "те же яйца, только в профиль".

[mmekourdukova.livejournal.com]

:-).
Из чего прямо следует, что на всякий укор Западу с нашей стороны в грехах против нравственности - ну там, в разрушении семьи, в легализации гомосексуализма, в открытой пропаганде греха и порока - Запад имеет право нам ответить упреком в беспримерной государственной коррупции, в бизнес-безответственности и некомпетентности и прочих "этических" грехах.

[bizantinum.livejournal.com]

Неа. У них самих и с коррупцией и с бизнес-некомпетентностью тоже всё "в порядке".

[ursusanglicanus.livejournal.com]

I would be the first to admit that our businessmen in the west are not whiter than white. It is a matter of degree.
But what I can say is that in 60 years living in England, Belgium, France, Germany and the United States I have never once had to bribe an official or a policeman.

[bizantinum.livejournal.com]

Ну это вероятно от тупости тамошних полицейских (они просто не знают, что можно брать взятки). А если серьёзно, о коррумпированности еврочиновников, пресса пишет регулярно.

[ursusanglicanus.livejournal.com]

Other countries' sins have always sold newpapers and TV documentaries (with the added 'doesn't happen here' feel-good factor which you don't have when they report corruption closer at home).

As a theologian I rather suspect that the basic 'quantum' of evil is pretty much the same in any society, just distributed differently as to where the evil one thinks he can do most damage...

And if on top of this he can get countries to despise each other for each others' more visible sins, he kills two birds with one stone.

[bizantinum.livejournal.com]

У нас говорят: "убить двух зайцев одним выстрелом".
А вообще, сами понимаете, что проблема то не в коррупции, а отходе от Христа и его Заповедей.

[yakov-krotov.livejournal.com]

Thank You for the explanation about Culture & Civilization. As concerns tradition--how can tradition exclude national peculiarities, fruits of inculturation? For example, Irish Roman Catholic tradition was very different from Roman in antiquity, and nowadays Roman Catholicism of China differs from Belgian... Or...

[ursusanglicanus.livejournal.com]

Tradition will inevitably inculture. The problem comes when a country’s Christian tradition carries bits where you are not sure whether they are really Christian or not.
This becomes very relevant when trying to 'sell' Orthodoxy, particularly of the Russian kind, in the west.
If I take Patriarch Kirill's principled stand against abortion and against homosexuality, the first part is clearly part of the Christian tradition (indeed I'm not sure how strong it really is in the Russian non-Christian tradition), the second, however, seems to me to appeal as much to a 'hang them by the balls' homophobia, in the popular tradition, as to the non-acceptance which has always been part of the Christian tradition.
It is this confusion that lies behind the concern to distinguish the two elements – Christian and national. The question I ask myself constantly is: are there Christian elements in the Russian tradition that we could usefully take into our own western tradition, without having to take in ‘national’ elements which are 'unswallowable' here?

[yakov-krotov.livejournal.com]

Thank You!